Listen Now

Podcast Notes

Aakash and Xand discuss Wave (https://wavexr.com/) with Flavius Popan, a software and audio engineer. Wave is building a new type of virtual show. They partner with music artists to create virtual reality experiences which are delivered digitally. Flavius's elaborates on the completely new experiences unlocked by going to a virtual reality concert. It's almost like Ready Player One is real.

Flavius can be found at https://www.linkedin.com/in/flaviuspopan/

Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/all-schemes-considered/message

Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/all-schemes-considered/support

Contact:

Email: allschemesconsidered@aakash.io

Twitter: @aakashdotio [https://twitter.com/aakashdotio]

Music credits:

Syn Cole - Gizmo [NCS Release] provided by NoCopyrightSounds

Autogenerated Transcript

Aakash Shah: [00:00:00] Welcome to All Schemes Considered, the weekly podcast where we dive deep on a startup and examine its viability as a business. It's a startup case study in about 25 minutes. I'm your host, Aakash Shah. 

Xand: And I'm your cohost Xand. 

Aakash: We're excited to tell you that we have a guest today. Flavius Popan. Flavius tell our listeners who you are.

Flavius Popan: [00:00:25] Hey, friends. My name is Flavius Popan, and I'm a self-described technophile currently working as a software engineer, but I also have a love of music and music technology currently studying audio engineering and music production in Boulder, Colorado. And so I'm very honored to be your guest today.

Thank you, Xand. And thank you. Aakash.

Aakash Shah: [00:00:45] Yes, of course. We're excited to have you, what company are we talking about today?

 Flavius Popan: [00:00:50] today we're talking about Wave and I believe they're just now known as wave plainly. they used to be called the wave VR, [00:01:00] similar to how Facebook was called the Facebook,

Aakash Shah: [00:01:02] well, I do believe wave is easier to say than the wave VR. I did some background research on wave wave has raised $42 million since launching in 2016. And, . During the pandemic, they raised $30 million in June 2020.  Wave says that it's reinventing the concert experience. Flavius you said you've been to a wave concert. So what was that like?

Flavius Popan: [00:01:27] It was absolutely incredible, really solidified the VR experience for me. Before that I had a little bit of experience playing in early 2016 VR. I attended my first show in the wave,  R L Grime was playing and completely sold me on this idea. at the time I was using the HTC Vive.

So it had tracking for the room.  I could look around the dance room and see people dancing. And it was so well motion captured that , my brain immediately jumped in and, you know, told me I was in the middle of a dance floor.

It was [00:02:00] so much fun. And that was back in 2016 when it was very. super fresh off the alpha build. I haven't been back since I don't currently own a VR headset, but that first experience just immediately sold me. And I love seeing this company succeed. really excited to see what comes out.

Aakash Shah: [00:02:16] So virtual reality or VR is something that I feel like I've heard a lot about. I feel like  it's like self driving cars. It's always on the edge. It's always up and coming  I've been hearing about it for 15 to 20 years.  even five years ago, when you went to this wave concert with RL grime, who's a EDM artists.

do you feel like, we provided you a new experience, something that justified having a virtual reality headset and going through the pains of having set up virtual reality.

Flavius Popan: [00:02:49] Oh, absolutely. Without a doubt, I was ready to be. A realist about this, you know, I obviously thought it was a neat idea and I expected the implementation to kind of feel pretty rough around [00:03:00] the edges. But the impression that I got is the core experiences there, it does, what it needs to do. And it does it really well.

And the rest is just trying to make it more applicable to non tech or just like your casual VR owner. 

  having had multiple experiences in VR, this one really felt the most promising. because I feel like what VR is lacking or was lacking back in those days was that human connection. that convincing argument that says you're in a digital space, but you're sharing it with other people.

This was so cool and I really came away super impressed.

 Xand Lourenco: [00:03:36] is it true that you still have to be a technophile to get an entry level VR headset? Or  is it kind of now something that's been a bit commodified. And you can kind of enter into the space without having a gaming PC 

Flavius Popan: [00:03:46] I think that's a great point. And I should clarify that maybe technophile wasn't the right word, but whatever you describe somebody that is very curious about the up-and-coming, somebody that is willing to try new technology and, [00:04:00] you know, even granted $300 for an entry level, VR headset is considered on the low end in the market as a whole, but it's 300 bucks,

Aakash Shah: [00:04:09] But $300 is like a fair chunk of change. also  if wave is reinventing the concert experience, you can't go to an artist or you can't go to someone that wants to create an experience for their customers or for their attendees and say, but first your attendees need to have a $200 virtual reality headset and know how to use it and like be willing to partition off a corner of their house

Flavius Popan: [00:04:35] Right. And go through the updates and say, yeah, I do feel like there's a certain amount of. Techno lust required to overcome that knowledge barrier or that experience barrier when it comes to like, okay, how do I tend to concert in VR? But I will say it's only a matter of time because only a few weeks ago I attended a, another, Event it wasn't in virtual reality, but I use my [00:05:00] iPad and I use my phone to join digitally as an avatar.

And there was a burning man in the multiverse. So due to COVID obviously burning man was canceled. And so there were about six or seven different. platforms slash applications that would allow you to create an avatar and join others in virtual reality. And that experience was super interesting because you're targeting people that are not typically tech enthusiasts.

You know, you're targeting burners and the wide. Demographic that attracts people to burning man and trying to get hundreds of thousands of people into virtual space. these kinds of events are helping bridge that gap to give people they experience without owning a virtual headset,  or for example, the Fortnite concerts with marshmallow, Travis, Scott, people already have the software, they already play the games.

And so you're introducing the concept of a digital concert in a way that. Can scale up to get to the [00:06:00] point where everyone is physically, what not literally physically together, but everyone is sharing a virtual space as a VR experience. I think it's a very logical step from one to the other.

Aakash Shah: [00:06:09] At least if I'm understanding this correctly, you know, wave right now is saying that they're focused on the concert experience, but I've been following, a variety of. technology showcases, there's the Apple event or the Snapchat partner's event.

And I think,  Apple's WWDC, was really the first large tech conference to happen. In the COVID era of social distancing and low travel and Apple created a completely new experience. Apple didn't take their in person experience and make it less. I really felt like Apple found ways to leverage the fact that it was completely digital and do things that you wouldn't be able to do in person.

And I don't have any examples. Well, you know, with me, but I know there was this one new story from 2018 when Fortnite was just completely blowing up [00:07:00] and marshmallow who was also an artists that was destroying the billboard top 40 at the time. he did an in person concert, not in person, I guess he did a concert in Fortnite servers.

If that makes sense. And what you would do is you logged in and you had your avatar and you just kind of existed in this space while marshmallow was also there and marshmallow held effectively a virtual show. And one thing that completely, Took me away was that when the drops hit in the marshmallow song, they would turn off the gravity in the game.

And, and the physics would just go crazy. And it was just, you felt like the energy that you wouldn't be able to do in person,

Flavius Popan: [00:07:44] No, it's it's next level, but if you think that's cool. That was a prerecorded show, mind you that, you know, it was rendered animated and similar to other in game events that trigger and change the map. you're essentially hitting play and letting the software [00:08:00] do its thing. It was still super entertaining.

Super cool, but a big difference with the way VR is it's fully interactive. When you, when you watch the artist and the DJ and the performer, they are live, they respond to audiences. It's It's a lot, there's a subtle difference, but it is a lot more tightly integrated in the wave.

Aakash Shah: [00:08:17] Right. Trying to really emphasize is that. wave can go for more than just concerts. There's a whole host of digital experiences that they can enable. And especially if they can make the digital experiences exciting enough, they don't have to rely on a market of, virtual reality headset owners.

Flavius Popan: [00:08:38] So are you saying that it has broader applications outside of the VR concert space? And it could be a means of just offering a digital environment for connection.

 Aakash Shah: [00:08:49] I don't know if it's quite like ready player, one sort of level, but I don't think you raised $30 million solely on the. Vision of we're going to do digital concerts. You raise [00:09:00] $30 million on a vision of we're starting with digital concert experiences, but there's a whole host of experiences that we can bring that are better for being digital At least that's how I would justify that sort of raise. And that's like the vision that you have to sell.

Flavius Popan: [00:09:16] I will challenge you to look into the financing of festivals and look at those numbers because you're talking about for someone like insomniac, hundreds of millions of dollars being spent over a single week at EDC, the, the amount of money that is being put towards. Music and experiences such as festivals, concerts, and whatnot are absolutely silly.

I just want to make sure you understand the scope of this sector. It is monstrously lucrative, but it also comes with a high level of risk because a lot of stuff is depending on the weather, insurance is insanely expensive for festivals, but. If it's one thing I'm confident of it's everyone wants to enjoy music and to do it in a novel way.

[00:10:00] And I think that's why the big shift has gone towards these 80 plus thousand people festivals like electric forest, experiences such as burning man and, Coachella , it's huge. I believe it has a lot of potential and reach even in that sector of musical experiences.

Xand Lourenco: [00:10:16] If festivals are that expensive, that gives you a ton of money to play with. You know, if I'm not paying for insurance and venues and security and all these other ancillary costs that come with the physical space, you could potentially envision.

Something like a Peloton model or where it's like, Hey, you sign up for wave. We send you a headset and you're instantly connected to not just concerts, but any experience on the way of platform, 

you know, you can kind of see this excess money that you're saving from. Not having events in a physical space could be translated really effectively to broadening reach to people who might not otherwise be interested in.

Picking up a VR headset, or as you pointed out someone who's not curious about the digital frontier, you know, you could definitely see these [00:11:00] acts using some of that money that would otherwise have gone to expenses in the physical realm towards digital enablement and outreach.

Flavius Popan: [00:11:07] Right. Another really good, Thinking about kind of shifting music festivals and these music experiences into the digital realm is there's a lot of crossover in the work that it takes for production artists to put together a show. So I'm sure both of you have been to rather big festivals. Those stages require an immense amount of technical talent and costs in terms of generating the visuals, paying artists, designers, and programming, that visual experience it's being spent and being done in physical shows.

And that work can also translate to digital shows. granted it's not a one to one. But there's already that budget put forth for getting stage design and visuals incorporated. So this is, this is a transfer of that skillset.

Aakash Shah: [00:11:55] I'm really excited for the types of experiences and visuals that you can get when [00:12:00] reality is not an issue

Flavius Popan: [00:12:01] Have you ever done virtual drugs before?

Aakash Shah: [00:12:03] how do you take the virtual drug?

Flavius Popan: [00:12:05] Well, I'll tell you, because this was one of the most amazing things about, the way VR back in those early days. so you get teleported to this kind of like strange ethereal realm before show starts.  it's kind of like that level where everyone's together, just running around before anything actually starts and they have this like little vendor.

They can walk up to, and it didn't cost anything at the time, because back in 2016, I don't believe they currency or any sort of like microtransactions or anything. but you can go to this vendor who sold digital goods and you could get like, for example, a bubble gun, and it would attach a little bubble gun to your hand.

And then when he pulled the controller trigger, just make bubbles. And you can use that during shows. you can buy bottles of champagne and like pop the cork and it'll play a sound effect for everyone. And then drench everyone in foam and they had these. Quote, air quote, unquote drugs, that looked like a little hearts are like little pills.

And then when you activate them   it's [00:13:00] already trippy. You just being at the show. Regularly, but then it would apply these  filters and visual effects and just  wobble the screen or like put hearts in everyone's eyes. And just like, man, I'm telling you, like, if they charged a dollar for those visual effects, I'd have a whole bag full of them.

Like it's, it's fun to just have that experience, being able to alter your reality and have that kind of control within the environment is like, okay, I want things to get a little wild believer. I want to change. This or add an audio fact that just makes everything sound crazy and washed out. Like there's a ton of these like little meta experiences, like tiny little pieces that all add up to this bigger picture of like, just being the most fun thing ever.

it's, it's, it's crazy. So yeah, if you ever want to take, virtual drugs together, count me in.

Aakash Shah: [00:13:47] My goodness.

Xand Lourenco: [00:13:48] that that's the most 21st century sentence I've heard, I think this year.

Aakash Shah: [00:13:53] Who needs real life drugs when you have virtual drugs? 

Well, it sounds like we're pretty sold on the validity of , this [00:14:00] experience. It sounds like you're sold. Flavius on wave being able to deliver. An engaging experience and to deliver on this promise 

I guess my question next is who does wave sell to

Flavius Popan: [00:14:12] I'd love to actually pick up a VR headset in the near future and stay more connected because it was amazing back then. I can only imagine how it's gotten now, but my understanding of their business model is that  you can sell tickets to an event.

And it depends on the event. I believe most of the big ones that draw drawn, a lot of people were free such as Lindsey, Sterling Rez. jaws a few others, but you can imagine charging like $2 for entrance to like an hour long set or show, at a very reasonable cost of admission. they're also selling space for advertisers in the digital realm.

So if you have a large stage or like a, an entire level dedicated to this performance, you can put up advertisements for. Various companies.  And then there's similarly microtransactions. so like I [00:15:00] said, you know, the virtual drugs or the virtual toys, or these little augmentations to the experience 

and, while epic games. Hasn't released the exact numbers around the Travis Scott experience in fortnight, but people are estimating that at generate around $30 million worth of revenue from people buying, you know, in game skins for their avatar.

  and so that model has been proven in and outside of the wave. And also for artists, I believe if I understand their vision correctly,  I would imagine that their future offering is, going to be able to create a platform experience to say, okay, I want to put on a digital show for my friends and whoever wants to attend.

I pay a fee that grants me access to their technology. I have an ability to host the event and basically lease or rent that virtual space and they will provide all the processing and all the  infrastructure to be able to bring people in and have that experience together.  So there's multiple models and all of them have been [00:16:00] proven to work in their own silos or in other things.

And I think wave is just trying to unify it and provide multiple sources of revenue and income.

  Aakash Shah: [00:16:10] But really to like, make it work. They need people who want to have experiences and they need people who want to attend these experiences. And so the prerequisite is that they need these artists or they need these, Record labels to say like, yeah, we want to have a wave concert the same way an artists, our record label might say, yeah, we want to have a stage at Lolla Palooza or at electric forest.  

Xand Lourenco: [00:16:35] So I think something that's really cool though. And I think something that will draw a lot of performers to this platform is a, there are plenty of people for whom novel experiences and technology intersect.

I know myself, Flavius Aakash all three of us are kind of that group. I know a lot of people like us who would be early adopters, people who would be interested in this kind of intersection of novel [00:17:00] experience and new technology.

And so I don't think it's a huge reach for way of, to kind of have an aggressive outbound sales pitch to go to different artists and be like, Hey. Your ticket sales are suffering your income and your revenue are suffering. All of that budget you had for events or for promotion. How about you come to us and we'll help you recoup it?

And I don't think I really, I really don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility for a wave to  turn into a full fledged  premier VR digital space. You can have concerts or birthday parties.

Or sports games, these kinds of things you could imagine them leasing or renting a VR headset, people, lot Peloton or other hardware rental services, and owning this space, a place for people to have not only novel experiences in VR and digitally, but experiences we're having the real world that are kind of empowered by a digital sort of innovation.

Flavius Popan: [00:17:51] Have you guys seen clips from some of these lives shows or these, performances?

Aakash Shah: [00:17:57] Yeah.

Xand Lourenco: [00:17:57] Yeah, it was trippy. That's kind of what convinced [00:18:00] me. This was definitely a possibility.

Flavius Popan: [00:18:02] Yeah. So from what I observe about their lineup, their strategy, their partners, and kind of how they're going about this is they need big name, visibility. They need big artists with big fan bases to bring people in and get them used to that idea. And these concerts are.

pretty customized. For example, Lindsey Sterling, she had an entire set designed around her motifs, her, her aesthetic, and all the participants like these little light orbs, when jaws Jauz, was playing all of the attendees were sharks and it was an underwater stage. And so there's this, This customization for the artists and for the experience that's extremely unique and very, very cool.

Like, I would love to be a shark swimming, underwater, listening to jaws, live playing, and also being able to like dance and like wiggle my flipper or whatever sharks do. 

Aakash Shah: [00:18:57] With digital drugs.

[00:19:00] Flavius Popan: [00:19:00] yeah. But, I can imagine it becoming a little more easy to maintain and onboard new artists  you want to have your set underwater plus 200.

You want to have custom avatars or like multiple, like it's easy to scale up. but right now, and I think for the next. Few years, they're going to be doing these, like one-off big name, concerts that are kind of customized and created by hand. and I think that's, it's working really well. It's, it's beautiful to see something new every time.

And I think it adds to the keel of, okay, if I go to this artist's show, it's going to be unlike anything that exists. Cause like when was the last time you went to a rave and turned into a shark really?

Aakash Shah: [00:19:40] . I just feel like, it sounds like ready player one and it sounds too good to be true, but I also know that it totally could be what happens.

Flavius Popan: [00:19:51] I mean, I'm not financially invested in the company. I have no interest besides the fact that it's just super cool. And the great thing, another great thing about it is I don't think it [00:20:00] really has to be an either or situation. Like I think a lot of people that are going to be drawn to these kinds of experiences are still going to go to concerts and festivals, even after COVID.

And there's still gonna be that market. I don't think you have to decide, but at the same time, if I want to together with my friends, listen to music and have a great time. This seems like a great way to do it without leaving the house. 

And. 

Aakash Shah: [00:20:19] I was actually about to say, I feel like this increases the accessibility of, concerts actually. Like I can't go, you know, I was never blessed enough to have a summer of music festivals. Like everyone on Instagram seems to have, 

Flavius Popan: [00:20:34] It's never too late.

Aakash Shah: [00:20:35] I don't think it happened this summer. Let me tell

Flavius Popan: [00:20:38] No, no, no. But you know, 

there, there is a few here for you.

Aakash Shah: [00:20:42] But I'm like, if my choice is between watching Netflix, going out for a few drinks and, you know, attending this concert, which is actually in San Francisco, but I'm in New York city. It's totally legitimate that I would choose to attend this concert in San [00:21:00] Francisco, especially if it was more than just streaming a video.

one thing I've learned a lot, especially in this pandemic times is you can really connect with people through a screen. and that's like, I feel like

it's why we've seen like live streaming services take off and fly. That's why we've seen Instagram stories take off where a creator talks directly to their audience. you know, if you can make that sort of interaction even more immersive, I think it's no question that it's going to do well.

Xand Lourenco: [00:21:26] Oh, I agree. A hundred percent.

Flavius Popan: [00:21:29] There was something strange that happened psychologically about the wave experience. And I didn't expect to be so convinced by it, but the fact that. Like when you're dancing, like when you're really dancing and enjoying yourself, you know, you're not staring at one single point, you're kind of like closing your eyes, opening your eyes, dancing, moving, it's, it's this kind of like physical human expression of limbs, all kind of co-opting and coordinating.

And the crazy thing is it was so [00:22:00] convincing because as I was dancing in virtual reality, I could see other people's heads swivel their arms, move their avatars shift and. For the current technology available, we're able to simulate a room full of people and their limbs independently kind of going. And so it created this energy of like getting you pretty close to the enjoyment of sharing a physical space and enjoying music without much else.

it's weird. Like, I think when you, dance in VR, It's able to translate and tell your brain, like I'm around other people and they're enjoying it themselves. And that just amplifies the enjoyment and the experience it's like, as I was saying in the book, getting like, you know, the implementation details, exactly how things look   all those things.

Things are great. But I really think we've captured the essence of human love and connection in a musical medium. Already, and now it's just a matter of sharing it with other people. So it's not as far of a stretch to imagine that it's gonna just, you know, be a [00:23:00] fantastic option for people that want to attend to show when they're not there, because you really do feel like you're at the show.

I'm really excited for them in the future.

Aakash Shah: [00:23:07] Well, I don't think there's anything else to say I'm sold on the vision just from talking to you. Zander Flavius. So you guys have any last comments?

Xand Lourenco: [00:23:16] no, I mean, I would have been extremely bearish on this even like a month and a half, two months ago, but just recent experiences, even with non-VR solutions to kind of like interfacing and being in a digital space have really made me do a one 80 on it. I think people really want that kind of connection 

and if a two D browser, if gathered town can do it, then this absolutely can do it.

Aakash Shah: [00:23:41] Sounds good.  Well, that's everything. We'll catch you all next week. Adios. 

Thanks for listening to this episode of All Schemes Considered. It means a lot to Xand and I. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe and check out a few of our older episodes. We're available on our website [00:24:00] allschemesconsidered.com and every podcatcher under the sun. If you really want to make our day, consider sharing it with a friend or coworker.

If you have a scheme you'd like us to consider, a guest you'd like us to have on. Maybe you just loved or hated this episode.  We want to know your thoughts. I'm on Twitter @aakashdotio. That's A A K A S H D O T I O. Or you can send an email to allschemesconsidered@aakash.io. Xand, you can't find online because he doesn't believe in the digital public forum.